The Napoleon of Thought Crime ([info]darthbeckman) wrote,
@ 2008-08-06 15:21:00
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Entry tags:history, principles, what's wrong with the world

Sixty three years ago today
Killing women and children first.

The anniversaries passed with little fanfare in America. No nation really likes to remember its crimes. Stories appeared about the bombings in the German and Japanese press—though both nations feel honor-bound to place them in the context of fascist atrocities which provoked them. But with a few exceptions, the American press has done little to remind us what Allied bombers wrought 60 years ago over the skies of Dresden and other German civilian targets, or over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And of course, there’s no hint of repentance. We were engaged in total war. The war had been forced on us by aggressive, inhuman regimes, of whom we could only demand unconditional surrender. In the face of so many extremes, of governments which could rape Nanking and slaughter the Jews, to win we could rightly resort to the most extreme of means. There was a powerful inner logic driving us to exterminate all those civilians. And so we did it. And so we refuse to regret it. And so we plan to do it again.

...It’s easy to lose sight of reality, when we’re dealing with such numbers. So let’s think of it this way: Every child who died from our bombs was as innocent as Anne Frank.


People who angrily respond to this with, "But the Germans and Japanese did the same and much worse besides," are missing the point entirely. For starters, it is we who now stand in a position of dominance over much of the earth, and our ability to discern the right path and to follow it will have a decisive effect on the rest of the world, and will determine whether our future is to be that of a nation intent on justice or of one devolving into just another large scale criminal enterprise, like most of the world’s now-fallen empires.

We Americans have to face and accept responsibility for the simple fact that what we did at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, etc., was wrong. I'm quite aware that not everyone grants this as a fact or that it is simple. The simplicity I'm referring to is not to the actual historical decisions, but to the principle: it is wrong to target noncombatants in war. It is wrong to incinerate hundreds of thousands of civilians in one fell swoop. It is wrong, and maybe what needs to be said more than ever in our current cultural climate, it is wrong even if there are putatively good reasons to do it. If it isn't wrong, then our fight with Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda simply becomes a question of who struck first, who had the greater provocation, who was more of a victim - we have no principled reason to disagree with their methods.

I'm not trying to say that the circumstances surrounding the decision made by Truman in 1945 were such that doing the right thing should have been easy. Nor do I seek to judge the moral culpability of those who made the decision and those who carried it out. It was not an easy decision, and anyone who says it would have been if he had been the one to make it is fooling himself. There is much that can be said and has been said about the extenuating circumstances surrounding the decision. What we, as a people, must not and cannot ever do is say that it was right.

It's important that we not ever say that because the sins of the past remain as temptations in the present. Someone who believes that stealing is wrong may, faced with the right combination of temptations and circumstances, steal anyway. But someone who doesn't believe stealing is wrong at all will certainly do it regularly. I think the great flaw - possibly the fatal flaw - with the American people is our tendency to think that if something really, really needs to be done, it must therefore be the right thing to do. It's a far lesser sin to occasionally fail to live up to the moral law than to reject it altogether.



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[info]jordan179
2008-08-06 11:08 pm UTC (link)
If Truman had taken your advice, a lot more people would have died, including a lot more Japanese citizens. This seems a heavy price to pay for Truman getting to indulge his feelings of moral superiority.

And if you doubt this, read up on the Japanese defense plans against Coronet. They included (pathetically) arming the civilian population and encouraging them to attack combat troops.

The slaughter, on all sides, would have been terrible and would have utterly dwarfed the death toll at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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[info]whip_lash
2008-08-07 12:36 am UTC (link)
This seems a heavy price to pay for Truman getting to indulge his feelings of moral superiority.

Oh, I'm sure there is a papal bull somewhere that commands mankind to pay any price necessary for moral superiority. Sanctimoneum Est?

You are not allowed to take consequences into effect when making decisions. One dying elderly guy cannot be sacrificed to save a million babies, regardless of whether there is another choice or not. That sounds like it ought to be irony, but Darth is serious. If evil triumphs because good men do nothing, that's most unfortunate, but hey, they aren't jeopardizing eternity in heaven with their invisible friend.

It's an utterly evil philosophy made worse by the sincerity and general decency of the people involved.

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[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 04:41 am UTC (link)
Failing to take consequences into actions when making decisions is stupid -- it directly contravenes the whole point of intelligence. Yes, you can be bound by moral limits, but I find it difficult to see why using atomic bombs to burn cities is any worse than using incendiary bombs to burn cities, as all sides had been doing in this war since 1940 anyway. And the consequences of not bombing the cities would have been horrendous -- worse than the consequences of doing so.

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-07 05:21 am UTC (link)
...and that whooshing sound is the point sailing over your head as usual.

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[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 05:28 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I get your point. You're saying that Truman shouldn't have done something immoral even if the consequences of behaving "morally" (I have my doubts as the the morality of holding back in a war as vicious as the one the Axis started) are far, far worse both for oneself and for the people one is behaving "morally" toward.

I get it. I just think it doesn't make any sense. A "morality" pitched like that is so impractical and destructive that there is no good reason to behave in such a fashion, and lots of good reasons to behave "imorally" by those lights. Which means that your "morality" will never count for much in the affairs of the world.

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-07 05:38 am UTC (link)
A "morality" pitched like that is so impractical and destructive that there is no good reason to behave in such a fashion,

I can think of at least one good reason. And the more I think about it, the more I realize it's the only reason that really matters.

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[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 05:43 am UTC (link)
Not going to hell?

If that's true Truman was a true hero, accepting eternal damnation as the price for saving millions of lives. How could one get braver than that?

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-07 05:57 am UTC (link)
Fat Man and Little Boy vs. a land invasion to secure unconditional surrender with millions dead.

The modern game of false choices is a lot of fun. I bet you once argued our choice was invade Iraq vs. everyone in America dies in nuclear fire.

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[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 07:56 am UTC (link)
Fat Man and Little Boy vs. a land invasion to secure unconditional surrender with millions dead.

The modern game of false choices is a lot of fun.


I'm sorry -- what third alternative do you see, that wouldn't have resulted in more deaths and suffering than the atomic bombardment?

And you haven't explained why the atomic bombardment was morally worse than the incendiary bombardment that preceded it.

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-07 04:59 pm UTC (link)
You're failing to make a distinction between intended and unintended/foreseen consequences. Suppose we decide to shock the enemy into surrender by capturing and killing all of the children of the enemy soldiers. Killing those children is both the object of our act, and the means to our intended end. In this case, it would be unequivocally evil.

Suppose you're a lieutenant and your order your soldiers to take a hill that is heavily fortified by the enemy. It is not your intent that any of your men die - indeed, you desire very strongly that they will all live. Nonetheless, you foresee that some of them will probably die. Their deaths are foreseen but unintended consequences of your act which is not intrinsically evil.

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[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 07:45 pm UTC (link)
You're failing to make a distinction between intended and unintended/foreseen consequences. Suppose we decide to shock the enemy into surrender by capturing and killing all of the children of the enemy soldiers. Killing those children is both the object of our act, and the means to our intended end. In this case, it would be unequivocally evil.

Yes, because the children of the enemy soldiers would be prisoners and hence under our control. The cities of the enemy, which contained factories which supported the enemy armed forces, were not under our control. The point of the strategic bombardment campaigns was to knock out those factories and hence deprive the enemy armed forces of the power to wage war.

Unfortunately, with World War II bombing technology, this meant knocking out the cities. They didn't have the PGM that give us an easier moral choice today.

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The devil was the first Whig
[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-07 05:36 am UTC (link)
You are not allowed to take consequences into effect when making decisions.

It must be a pain to pick all of that straw out of your clothing after you tackle it to the ground.

The only circumstance in which you shouldn't bother taking the consequences of a proposed action into account is if the chosen behavior of your act is intrinsically evil. If the chosen behavior is evil, it doesn't matter why you chose it, it only matters that you chose it. In this case, evil triumphs not because good men do nothing, but because good men apologize for it.

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Re: The devil was the first Whig
[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 07:57 am UTC (link)
The only circumstance in which you shouldn't bother taking the consequences of a proposed action into account is if the chosen behavior of your act is intrinsically evil.

In war, all choices are between evils.

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-07 02:38 pm UTC (link)
No, they aren't. Anyone who says so doesn't really understand war or moral theology.

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[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 07:50 pm UTC (link)
In war, the best available moral choices mean that you are going to deliberately slaughter a whole bunch of young men whose crime was being on the wrong side. They may not have even volunteered for the position. If you're very, very lucky, they'll surrender before you have to murder too many of them, and then you get to hold them prisoner for years for that same crime.

Don't paint it up pretty -- war is hell, even the "cleanest" war.

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[info]maidenjedi
2008-08-07 12:02 am UTC (link)
You're right, we could have waited and done nothing but continue to engage the Japanese on island after island, finally on the island of Japan itself. We could have asked Stalin to get in on it from the west.

I understand your principle here, right and wrong being black and white. But does motivation, does cause count for so little (this is strictly rhetorical)?

You give me a lot to think about.

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[info]jordan179
2008-08-07 04:42 am UTC (link)
You're right, we could have waited and done nothing but continue to engage the Japanese on island after island, finally on the island of Japan itself. We could have asked Stalin to get in on it from the west.

The first option would have killed millions of Japanese, and the second condemned millions more to lifetime slavery.

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-07 05:41 am UTC (link)
ut does motivation, does cause count for so little (this is strictly rhetorical)?

In this case, yes. Keep in mind we are only discussing the objective moral status of the act in question, and not the subjective moral culpability of the acting subjects, since that is for God alone to know. The act we are discussing is deliberately targeting civilians in wartime. That can be classified as intrinsically evil, that is it is always and everywhere wrong. It doesn't make one whit of difference why we did it (again, when we're discussing the objective status of the act and not the culpability of the actors) only that we did it.

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