The Napoleon of Thought Crime ([info]darthbeckman) wrote,
@ 2008-08-09 07:22:00
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Entry tags:war

Marching towards Georgia
Senator McCain: “Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory.”

This war provides a stark illustration of why expanding NATO into the former Soviet republics was always an insane idea. Neoconservatives might imagine NATO expansion to be synonymous with advancing freedom, but at the end of the day NATO is a military alliance. If Georgia was a member of NATO, we would be obligated to go to war on her behalf right now. Are even the most rabid warhawks ready to declare war on Russia? Just as an intellectual exercise, could you craft a speech, to be delivered by the president on national television, explaining why American soldiers have to die for Georgia (not the one in the Deep South, but Stalin's birthplace?) Better yet, with two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, is the US in any position to go to war with Russia?

The answer, of course, is no. Which means McCain's statement comes off as, "I don't really mean what I'm saying. I am just posturing from the camera. I have no idea what's going on or what the US should do."

Dan Larison has a good series of posts on this subject here, here, here, here, and here. It's rich to hear the WSJ and Washington Post complaining about Russian "imperialism."


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[info]dingodonkey
2008-08-09 05:31 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you regarding expansion of NATO and all, but your criticism of Sen. McCain here seems a little strange to me.

Would you rather he refuse to comment on the matter, or what? He obviously wasn't advocating American military intervention in any way. I would hope that the invasion of an ally of ours, who has assisted in our recent military adventures, should be cause for statement. I don't know what other position makes sense than to say Russia should withdraw and apply whatever diplomatic pressure possible to help it happen.

I understand you don't like McCain, but I just can't see where he went wrong here.

Unless you would rather he say "whatever, it's all our fault for seeking influence over eastern Europe", or some such thing.

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-10 12:23 am UTC (link)
Would you rather he refuse to comment on the matter, or what?

I'd rather he not make silly demands like the one he made. Russia is not going to withdraw until they feel like it, and everyone knows we can't make them.

Unless you would rather he say "whatever, it's all our fault for seeking influence over eastern Europe"

This has always been a source of confusion for me. For years we've done things that would inevitably provoke the Russians - bombing Serbia, supporting Kosovo independence, advocated the expansion of NATO into former Soviet states - and then everyone is shocked, shocked when the Russians get angry and lash out. Every time the Russians do anything, our media always acts as though it's an isolated incident or a bolt from the blue.

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[info]dingodonkey
2008-08-10 01:06 am UTC (link)
Granted, people ought not be shocked when the Russians respond as they so often seem to. And granted, Russia isn't going to withdraw because we say to.

But nobody expects them to actually listen to us, and everybody knows that it's not an "or else" demand. Just the same, an ally has been attacked in a situation where we cannot offer direct assistance. If you're going to criticize McCain for responding as he did, again, what would have been better?

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[info]darthbeckman
2008-08-10 01:09 am UTC (link)
A general expression of sorrow and desire for the two parties to settle their differences peacefully would have sufficed.

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[info]dingodonkey
2008-08-10 01:22 am UTC (link)
Fair enough. No trouble disagreeing on policy matters like this, but should we ever cross paths... right after I buy you that beer, I'll bore you to tears over this one ;)

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[info]mrbogey
2008-08-09 09:15 pm UTC (link)
I say we one up Russia and invade Canada for no good reason.

What do you call it when a nation invades another for solely geopolitical reasons except imperialism? Hitler had more reason to invade Poland.

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[info]seraphimsigrist
2008-08-09 11:54 pm UTC (link)
One agrees that it would be an overextension of
Nato but at the same time it is a case of
aggression(or in a sense veiled to the extent
that the paramilitiary agents etc sent into
abkhazia and ossetia are covert). It is not
a matter of going to war with russia but it is
perhaps wise to find ways to persuade them not
to push too far in their attack on a free country.
just my opinion and if yours differs well what
of it in a sense, it doesnt make either of us a good
or bad man...
It is easy to become passionate about things in
the news and I must confess that when I have read
some posts on georgia today I have felt that
they were by people who knew nothing about the
subject but disliked the policy as they conceived
it of their own country and so were sounding off...

you are a man of some learning so I suppose this
is not your case, nor would it be a crime if it
were, but I am afraid this response comes out
of that sort of irate feeling about other posts
I have seen...

and I am sorry to have responded if at all to your
posts more on points of disagreement. public
affairs tends to bring out difference I guess
anyway yours
+Seraphim

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